The Last Word With Lawrence O'Donnell : MSNBCW : May 30, 2024 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

store you are watching our live continuing special coverage of today's unanimous guilty on all counts verdict. in the criminal trial of former president donald trump. i am rachel maddow, i'm here with my colleague, stephanie ruhle and jen psaki and alex wagner and chris hayes, in a courtroom in downtown manhattan, just after 5:00 eastern time this evening, a foreperson of the journey rose and delivered the jury unanimous , guilty on all 34 counts of falsifying business records in order to conceal the scheme to correct the 2016 election. the scheme that was described by the prosecution in their summation as something that may very well have been the reason that donald trump won the 2016 election. as of tonight, it is official a

criminal scheme, he has been convicted on 34 counts. with those convictions, we enter uncharted territory as a country, for the first time, a president has criminally convicted and for the first time for one of our two main political parties is about to nominate that same man for president. after he has been convicted of 34 felonies. that is where we are tonight. there has been no official reaction from president biden tonight, to a jury finding his predecessor and his 2024 likely competitor, donald trump, guilty today on so many charges. i should tell you, today is the anniversary of president biden's son, though, diane. the president is spending the day in family in delaware. for the most part, president biden has been very circ*mstance about making any statements regarding trump's trial, at all. that has been true all along.

>> i have no comment on that. >> president biden. >> have you been following it at all? >> not, only on the evening news i watch. >> are you following that at all? recently there have been a few occasions, particularly in a campaign context, where president biden has been willing to sort of obliquely acknowledge the legal troubles afflicting his rival. >> under my predecessor, who is busy right now. >> [ laughter ] >> pennsylvania lost 275,000 jobs. >> i had a great stretch since the state of the union. but donald has had a few tough days lately. you might call it stormy weather. what the ? >> always act like he wants to debate me again. make my day, pal.

i will make you do it twice. let's pick the day, donald. i heard you are free on wednesdays. >> free on wednesdays referring to the fact that the trial schedule kept donald trump free on wednesdays because judge merchan had other matters to attend to most wednesdays. >> the white house counsel's office which represents the office of the president, the office of the presidency, not the president himself, did offer this short statement in response to the jury verdicts tonight. they said, quote, we respect the rule of law and have no additional comment. the biden campaign did put out a statement. what, donald trump has always mistakenly believed he would never face consequences for breaking the law for his own personal gain. but today's verdict does not change the fact that the american people face a simple reality. there is still only one way to keep donald trump out of the oval office, at the ballot box. convicted felon or not, trump will be the republican nominee for the president.

on a similar and shorter note, former trump white house staffer and now trump antagonist, anthony scaramucci, remember him? he posted this today in response to the verdict. quote, trump will never be president again. democratic senator, cory booker of new jersey, this response today. today, our legal system has reaffirmed that no one is above the law, not even a former president this was from new york governor, kathy hochul, also a democrat. in preparation for a verdict in the straw, i directed my administration to closely chordate with local and federal law enforcement and we continue to monitor the situation. we are committed to protecting the safety of all new yorkers and the integrity of our judicial system. a response from e. jean carroll, she went mammoth damages in civil court against trump for sexual abuse and libel. she tweeted one word and a picture worth and infinite

number of thousands. this is the picture she posted, this is e. jean carroll posting a picture of stormy daniels. one word, justice. and then two! punks. on the other side, the response has been quite the opposite. trump himself, again, called the trial rigged and a disgrace. he called the judge corrupt, nothing new there. trump allies follow suit as if they had been bought wholesale to do there. sarah huckabee sanders, formally took trump's white house press secretary, a politically motivated sam she promised that, quote, donald trump will be our next president. republican u.s. senator, jd vance from ohio called the verdict,, an absolute miscarriage of justice and a disgrace to our judicial system. republican u.s. senator tim scott from south carolina road, quote, absolute injustice, this arose our justice system. mike johnson, a similar attack, quote, today is a shameful day in american history. he called

the charges, quote, ridiculous and said, quote, this is a purely political exercise, not a legal one. the weaponization of our justice system has been a hallmark of the biden administration. and the decision today is further evidence that democrats will stop at nothing to silence the dissent and crush their political opponents. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, with the upside down american flag. a distress signal seen among the mob on january 6th, and then later in the yard of justice samuel alito. responses along those lines have just kept coming. >> didn't he say he didn't do it? >> i haven't noticed. >> just, yeah. >> the conviction of donald trump is bringing out allies, whether performative. it is bringing out aspirant, it is bring out aspirant to be his running mate. if the republican party continues on the path of making his formal nominee, they have come out to support trump,

which is a matter of politics, of course. but they have also chosen to do so, not by saying, stephanie ruhle just pointed out, not by saying he is innocent, but instead by saying that the american system of justice is a sham, is a legitimate, doing everything they can to undermine not just this verdict but our system of government in order to do so. >> can i ask a question here? so it strikes me as important during the process of the trial, particularly if the president of the united states, to not weigh in on it, i think that is correct and i understand the posture of democrats to say when the case being made, this is fundamentally a partisan exercise, by democrats and liberals, et cetera, to kind of stay away. but after the verdict comes in, let's just imagine you are running for state rep, jen psaki . and your opponent gets convicted for felonies. you think you do maybe a campaign event about it you think you

maybe call a press conference, you have your surrogates out. right now we have this bizarre situation in which the entire republican party is running around all day say this is rich, this prosecutor. and largely the democrats are just saying like, rule of law. i'm sorry, your opponent got convicted of 34 felonies. it's okay, guys. >> it's done. >> it's done, you can go talk about that. you can go do something with that. i feel like i'm losing my mind watching the reaction here because there is a set, there is this learned helplessness where everyone has already rushed to conclude this won't matter. everybody has already rushed past whether it will matter to say if it won't matter. the biden folks come off the record, talking to reporters that they don't think it will fundamentally change the race. you talk about it that way i imagine it probably won't. >> the official statement from

the biden campaign says it does not change the fact that a simple reality, there's only one way to keep trump out of the oval office, at the ballot box. >> i'm just going to disagree with you guys. one, i think you see a differentiation right now between what the white house is saying, that statement you read is from the spokesperson for the counsel's office. not the white house press secretary. that is the right decision. the campaign statement, i think who they are speaking to hear is the democratic party and the base to say hey, guys, don't go out there and celebrate. this is still going to be an extremely close race and there's a lot of things that we need to battle over. what i think is happening in strategy meetings with the president right now is a discussion of what he is going to say when asked. i don't think he is going to say yeah, running against a convicted felon. right? that is not his style. nor do i think you should say that because i do think it feeds into the politicalization that the other side is accusing them of. i could see him saying something to trump like no one is above the law, not even you, at the debate.

so they see the debate as a big moment. right? not necessarily to battle over the legal cases but to battle over a lot of things that have not been litigated out there. this is blocking a lot of things out. for them, they don't want the legal cases to be the base of the campaign. they want it to be about abortion rights and other issues. >> but take a win where you have one. i am not saying they should go out and say to democrats, let's go celebrate today. but just like donald trump, seconds after the verdict, he is, boom, out there with a fund- raising screen on every. >> the biden campaign is fundraising, too. they are all fundraising. the campaign's fundraising. so in some ways, they are politicizing it, as well. everybody is politicizing it. they will all raise record amounts of money, i would just predict that over this. i do think, in this moment, everybody is covering, four hours, the fact that trump was just convicted on 34 felony counts. they need to decide what they do tomorrow and the next day, i don't think i think it is the right decision for them not to be out there with the president giving a speech or a big

statement or anything like that >> you said you don't imagine him saying you are convicted felon because you think that is breaking policy. >> actually i think it is not his style. i think they have to figure out what his style is that is going to be authentic coming out of his mouth. >> he called him a six-year- old, i bet he could call him a felon. >> he might. my point is, they've got to figure out what is going to sound authentic coming out of his mouth, that hauls this out, right? that calls this out at the debate and calls this out when he answers questions at some point. be about this moment be a street fight, say to this american people, this is what this man was just convicted of. was john bolton today, trumps former nsa adviser who said, today's verdict is a fire bell in the night, the republican party now has one last chance to change course, and not nominate a convicted felon for president. to me, those are stronger fighting words then we are seeing from democrats. today, we saw a huge wall street bigwig, bill ackman, start to get closer and closer

to endorsing trump. why aren't people saying to him, you are the guy out there who looked to college protesters and said, i would hire a college protester at my multibillion-dollar hedge fund. why isn't a democrat saying to him, would you hire a convicted felon? where's the streetfighting is the question? >> bill ackman does not rule the country. i don't think people care, in general, like the public isn't waiting for that. but i get the streetfighter thing and i also think that what they did with de niro this week was an effort to do that. and i first saw that they were doing that i thought, that is a little weird. i don't know what you guys thought, that is like a weird kitschy thing. but then when they actually did it, i thought oh, they are injecting themselves into the story. i think it is a tricky balance. >> i just think there's a little but of distinction, there is a political point, which i agree with, which is i don't think the fact that the president, the ex-president of the united states and the current nominee was just convicted on 34 felonies in new york by a jury of his peers after two days of deliberation

in a six week trial, is going to magically alter the political terrain. >> no. >> if you ask me as an analyst. but i think if i were working in democratic politics, i would try to make -- i think that normatively and descriptively, yes, descriptively i think people, there's this narrow group of people, everything about trump, we all know that. but also like, sometimes the politics god give you something and maybe you do something with it and not just conclude ahead of time. >> and don'ts, the assumption that it is not going to matter seems premature, right? nobody knows that it is not going to be a thing. so why not talk about it? bill ackman may not matter to everybody in america but he is an indicator. if you make it okay for wall street or swing voters to not care about this, then it will be okay for them not to care about it. so it does matter whether they buy into this being a thing or not. >> let me say, this is not all

on president biden. we are also heading into an election where the democratic party and the republican party are squaring off in gazillions of races. it is a republican party decision to keep somebody with 34 felonies against them at the head of their party. it is a republican party decision, and every republican politician in the country should have to answer for that if democrats are playing the politics of this correctly. you never have to mention trump's name. for the republican party to choose somebody who is a convicted felon as the namesake and leader of their party, something you should have to answer for if you are a republican running for dogcatcher. the republican party doesn't need to pick him, there is nothing determinative about his place as the nominee. they can change it. >> here's what i think, this is a really important point, because i spent the whole entire afternoon talking to big gop donors, all these big wall street guys, who in the last month or so, have all warmed to

trump. and again, they are, because they know he is a completely transactional guy. and they know, while the chips are down, and he is embarrassed and he is desperate, which he is right now, he keeps score, and he remembers exactly who was with him when he was down. so they are going to stand up and say, you are my boy, and then if he wins in six months, they're going to call in their chips. you got a get out of jail free pass. >> because he is so loyal. >> a year and a half ago, guys, schwartzman, ackman, take your pick, they loved nikki haley. they loved ron desantis, and they are out there saying, we are done with trump. we are done with generous sixth, we are done with everything he did but now they don't have nikki haley or ron desantis and now they are sheepishly saying, well i guess i will go with trump. this could be a moment to remind them, remember a year and a half ago when you said the republican party is ready for somebody else, what are we going to do? and this could be a moment to say, really, you're going to go with this? let's talk about this person again. >> also, all the people you

just read their statements of, speaker of the house called this a shameful day in american history. he is the second in line to the presidency, mike johnson, the shameful day in american history, where a jury of 12 men and women that were selected through a very legitimate historic, process, that is how it always works. they made this decision. and that is what he had to say. so for all of the same people who work giving to the house republican re-election fund, it is a question for them, too. you are also supporting that. >> chris hayes. >> let me bring a now a democrat who is running for office, congressman adam schiff of california, to serve as a lead manager of donald trump first appeasem*nt trial. he is now running for senate in the state of california. congressman, thank you for being with us. i don't know, do we have him on sound? i do not hear him.

do we have you there, congressman? >> yes you do, chris, can you hear me? >> now we got you. first, let me just get your reaction. it is the perfect opportunity to get to talk today as someone who has been chronicling and talking about donald trump's misdeeds for years, just your reaction to the verdict today? >> well, today, today was the day justice caught up with donald trump i do think with democracy as stressed as ours, we should take heart that you know, the system worked. the 12 ordinary americans adjudicated the guilt or innocence of a former president of the united states. that is a remarkable thing. something that is not possible in most countries around the world. and so i think it is a good day for the system of justice. chris, the other thing that leaps out at me is this was a victory for the justice system in new york. it was not a victory for the federal justice system. as you were pointing out earlier, donald trump was an unindicted co-conspirator number one in an indictment in

the southern district of new york based on largely these facts, the justice department said michael cohen needed to go to jail for his role in that. they did not charge donald trump in the case of the justice department did charge donald trump. in florida, and washington, d.c. the federal judges, particularly on the supreme court, but also in florida, have knowingly gone along with donald trump's efforts to deny justice by delaying it. it was the justice system in new york that has held him accountable. and, you know, i think people in new york should take pride that their citizens were able to adjudicate the guilt or innocence of a former president of the united states. he is now in new york, been adjudicated of sexual abuser, he has been adjudicated a business fraudster. he is now a convicted felon. and someone with that kind of record is patently unfit for office. that is my quick take away on today. >> i want to ask about the reaction of some other members of congress speaker of the

house, mike johnson. we were just discussing it. in case you haven't seen what he had to say, calling it a shameful day in american history. the democrats cheered as they convicted, they convicted the leader of the opposition party on charges, predicated on testimony. surely political exercise, not legal, the comment goes on and on. there has been a unanimous cry, essentially, from elected republicans along those lines. what do you think about the speaker of the house talking about the verdict in those terms? >> the only thing shameful about today is the actions of speaker johnson and so many of trump enablers. that they would for him, for the benefit of this convicted felon, would tear down our justice system, would have further discredit on the justice system. mike johnson knows better. this is just calculated desired to cling to power. and that truly is shameful.

and there is just no two ways about it. every time over the last eight years, when we have thought, okay, surely now, republicans of good sense will reject, step away, move away, condemn, shun, donald trump, this incredibly immoral, unethical, and now criminal human being, but every time they show us who they truly are, and literally are people whose word, whose oath, whose devotion to the constitution means nothing compared to their desire for power. the cheney's, the adam kissinger's, stand out in such stark relief because there are just so few of them, that is the shameful aspect of today. the rejection still by republican leadership, our justice system, and of our democracy. >> i want to ask you one more

question on political terms, last time i checked you are in fact a politician and practicing law and currently running to be a united states senator. we just had this discussion and i don't know if you heard it but basically, it is striking to me, the asymmetry in town. so you have republicans high and low, members of the house, members of the senate basically screaming that this is an outrage, that this is a travesty and a mockery. and you have democrats by and large bringing up statement saying it is good that we respect the verdict, but the campaign put out a statement. but not really playing the kind of hardball you might expect when you are running a campaign and suddenly, in the middle of said campaign your opponent is found guilty of 34 felonies. how do you think about the politics of this? how to talk about it in a way that doesn't essentially denigrate the solemnity of what happened. but also doesn't shy away from what happened in a political sense? >> you know, i think we have to

do both. first of all, we have to think, if knowledge what history was made today, and it is solemn and it is something that we have to take our breath away. and we want to affirm what they are attacking. what they are attacking is not just joe biden here, they are attacking the whole justice system so we need to defend the justice system but we also need to go after them with a vengeance. they are shameful clinging to this convicted felon. now i think the message today may be more focused, as you say, on, hey, democracy worked. thank god for that. but it also has to point out the fundamental unfitness, how, once again, we see, this is a man that should never be near the levers of power again and we should not hesitate and we should reform in pointing out to the country, in the most powerful, sharp terms we can, this is a convicted felon this is someone convicted of multiple felonies, for hush money payments to a p*rn star.

this is just the first of three , with three more trials to come. so i think we need to lean in and i am in your school, chris, when it comes to, if this doesn't matter it is not going to matter to people. i think it will matter to people. it won't matter to those that donald trump says we supported somebody in the street. that is not most americans. i do not believe most americans want a convicted felon as the president of the united states nor do they want someone who is so fundamentally indecent, unlawful, with such scorn for everything the country stands for. >> congressman adam schiff, thanks very much, appreciate it. >> congressman schiff basically laying out, here is the two,

here is the things that are written at the top of your to- do list. it is in two columns, one of them is defend the justice system and one of them is go after them like crazy for clinging to this convicted felon as the leader of their party, and their movement. >> do those, he just said a sentence that is so comical when you think about it. he said i do not believe most americans want a convicted felon as their president. well, that is a hot take, yeah. i mean, we will find out. but yes, i think that is a fair assessment. >> most people don't like to eat poison. exactly, yes, let's start there. let's move on. yeah, what he is saying, though. as elementary as it sounds, as you rightly point out, chris. it is not what we have today. and they have been erring on the side of reticence and calm, as the republicans accused them of going crazy and dancing in the streets. we have not been able to find it. but that, those are the messages coming out of this that makes sense, not just for joe biden running against

donald trump but for every democrat running against every republican in every race in the country. >> there might also be phases here. tonight, today, right, was the announcement of the verdict, right? and they are letting the republicans go crazy out there. and you heard almost like what that twist is going to be from adam schiff, right? which is defense of the system and the institutions and the solemnity of the moment will also go like after them. so what does that pivot look like, and how do you balance those two things, which can be tricky. we also need to get real about what defending the justice system means. it is not an abstract thing. >> this is an important point, yes, the majority of americans don't want to elect a convicted felon. however, lots of those americans at this point, have been commenced, well, maybe this conviction doesn't count, because maybe >> like the 2020 election doesn't count.

>> and that is an issue because lots of people can rationalize it and say, well, it wasn't a good trial. it wasn't a good deal. and that is a problem, our system has been undermined over and over and it is eating away. >> that is the importance of defending prosecutors, the judge, right? do not let donald trump suggest that it really is a kangaroo court, that this isn't a viable verdict. that this is somehow a process that didn't have integrity. >> if the republican party is allowed to and succeeds on waging war on the legal system because of this case, because of this defendant, because of his criminal liability, do you think that they uphold legitimacy of the legal system for all other cases and all of the defendants? no, if they tear it down and they are allowed to physically intimidate the people in the system and get the american people to not accept the legitimacy of this court's finding because it is their guy who has been targeted by it, that is the end.

that is it, doesn't come back from the people if it goes away from trump. >> also having essentially implicitly, trump and his own way, saying we are calling this a weapon iced political prosecution of a political foe. we will do that when we have power. this sort of, look what you made me do. >> useless. >> except a year and a half ago, in a brooklyn courtroom, when one of donald trump's longest time business associates and confidant, tom barrack, was on trial for using his relationship with the president of the united states to get favors for the uae, he was acquitted. republicans are conveniently forgetting this. saying, it's impossible for donald trump, for a republican, in new york. tom barrett, i cannot think of someone closer to him personally and professionally, he was the head of the inauguration committee that was

acquitted a year and a half ago. >> so with these criticisms of the legal system are not in good faith, what are they? they are an effort to get rid of the american system of government and change it fundamentally so we will have a stronger forming government where rule of law does not apply. the judicial system is used to do what the leader once. that is what they're working on. >> and the values you just outlined is where i think joe biden is going to be most comfortable. i'm not suggesting, he is going have some way of calling out donald trump. i don't know what it is yet, i don't think they know what it is yet but i also think this message of who we are as a country and its defense of our systems and our democracy, everyone always says doesn't matter and people do care about it and it does matter. so i think it is figuring out, for him, how you make that argument. because this sliver of people who show up in these polls that are trump supporters who might say, i might reconsider, right? they are not a kangaroo court people. they are the people who might be, who might find that message of values and democracy appealing. so it is like hitting that

sweet spot. even though, believe me, it feels much better to go out there and be like, he is a convicted felon! it might not be the most effective message. >> we will continue our coverage of the conviction of donald trump. what it means for our country and our politics, after a short message. e. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor.

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welcome back to are ongoing special covers today in new york, a jury unanimously found

former president donald trump guilty on all 34 felony counts with which he was charged by the manhattan district attorney. now the manhattan d.a. announced these 34 only counts against trump last year, april 2023, by august, defendant trump was also facing a pair of federal indictments and the big rico indictment in fulton county, georgia, for a total of 91 felony charges if you add them all up. if you factor all this legal jeopardy, now this felony conviction on candidate trump for 2024, has been an open and evolving question with the public. there is polling in november, the new york times and sent a college that suggested if trump were convicted and sentenced in any one of these cases, a significant number of trump voters in swing states would switch their support from trump to biden, about six points overall, certainly enough to cost trump and election. and exit polling from the early

stages of the republican presidential nomination, anywhere from three at 10 to 4 in 10 voters in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina said trump being convicted would mean that he was not fit to serve as president. that was january, february of this year. around the same time, a poll from bloomberg in the morning consult found more than half of registered voters saying trump would lose their vote if he were found guilty of a crime. well, now that trump has been convicted and convicted 34 times, we are no longer talking about this as a hypothetical. it is doubly important to keep in mind that polling voters about a possible future event is notoriously difficult. but because the news got a sense of timing, new poll conducted in may, and released today, yes, today, asked specifically about the hush money trial in new york, which might be the only trial, of course, to start and finish

before the election. this is the new npr pbs poll released today. but before the verdict, most voters said a conviction in the hush money trial wouldn't affect their vote, 67% saying it would make no difference. overall voters, a conviction might actually benefit trump by 15 points, mostly among republicans. the percentage of republican voters who said they would be less likely to vote for trump was down to 10%. put all the things together, and npr's own headline here, they say, quote, trump verdict would likely move only a small number of votes. but if recent elections, of course, are any indication, a small number of votes in a few places is all you need to change the outcome. jen, you are talking about this. voters that are not necessarily persuadable voters in the traditional sense voters whose voting behavior might be

affected by a criminal conviction. >> and, as you say, is very hard to test a hypothetical. because on the one hand, some people who said, yeah, it might make less likely, this might have happened and they might be like, no, i still like that guy. that is still possible. the other piece that that is very hard to measure in polls is the emotions of it. and what people feel about the character. because some of what is hard to measure is, do people look at him and think, there's too much baggage? or if he is doubling down four weeks from now and saying this is a screwed up system and it is a rigged system. >> got to get rid of all the judges. >> he is attacking the judge and his family. are people like you, this is too much? i don't want to hear him talk about this anymore. it is hard to measure that, because people vote by emotions and how somebody makes you feel. >> i think that is such an important and interesting point about how he will react to it and what that will do to his campaigning ability. because it really is a problem for him, the obsessive jan six

lost election grievance, just as an election tool for persuadable voters. him doing like long riffs about judge merchan i think is not that effective. even if the verdict doesn't move people, the degree to which he obsesses about this publicly and consistently as his main campaign message i think is impossible. >> that is where kind of the mantra of trump, which is my grievances are your grievances. >> they can do it to me. >> lauren trump, today, was tweeting out from her father-in- law, saying they came after me because i am standing in the way of them and you, effectively. i am paraphrasing and that is the answer, way for him to talk about his own travails and map them onto his supporters. >> reporters have been busted for paying hush money to stars. >> donate catch and kill.

just suppress. >> who amongst us don't have the skins already lined up with david pecker? >> i am here to serve for you but that is one way you can keep talking about it and presumably some portion of this. >> i am also just really curious at a, are people aware of it? just as an empirical question, not even doesn't move people or not? my sense was that, a certain portion of the electorate, paying very careful, close attention to this trial. the majority of voters were not. that there is some universal voters who didn't know that much about it, and who are going to wake up tomorrow or today to the banner headlines ever, this will be news that when you ask americans a week from now, have you heard that donald trump was convicted of multiple felonies, they will tell you yes. they will know that. and i am curious what that does. we don't know. >> there will be money spent,

regardless of how the biden campaign spends their money on ads, outside groups will spend, there will be a lot of money spent, i will bet on this. the other thing i think is kind of like interesting to watch here, in terms of what trump does or what he says, he is addicted to that adoration from his core base, right? and he knows his core base loves this retribution message and loves this message of i am the victim. so it would require him having some discipline not to seek the adulation from the core of his base in order to talk about other issues. i found one of the most interesting things he did today, all sorts of things, it was quite a day for him. when he was returning to his apartment building, right? he kind of turned around and lifted his fist to raise it to the cameras. >> the two fists at once. >> it may have been a smart move for a photograph or something but it was like he was still seeking support or clapping from people. >> i have looked into this moment, for a while, because it

was weird. he did the one fist and then he did the two this and started to do the motion. so he was [ laughter ] it will be soon. he was outside trump tower and there were people outside trump tower, from our reporting, as much as we can tell, the republic facing reporting we have seen on this, it was a pretty healthy mix of people who were there to give him a one finger salute and say you have just been convicted. and a mix of some trump supporters, too. so he walked up to them, knowing the cameras were on him, sort of pretended like there is a big, during crowd where most of the people were giving him a bronx cheer, as i said, a one finger salute. he was sort of cheering the crowd against him, knowing that the cameras were pointing one way. >> which is kind of fascinating. and then he did it. >> his crowds have not turned out to protest for him at the courthouse except in very small numbers. >> that base loves his message

no matter what. i was in the core base is not enough to get him elected. beyond that, he is surrounded by special interest groups who are willing to ignore convictions and everything else as long as they get their thing. whether it is the nra, whether it is white evangelicals, whether -- >> fossil fuel companies. >> hey, am i still getting the thing i need? if i am, i'm good to go. >> they also got the counterexample sitting right in front of them with michael cohen, right? you can show trump all the obsequious kissing up that you will, you can give him all the campaign donations you want, you can serve them, you can actually take a hit to your reputation for him and you might think that you are doing a transactional thing with him but if the transactional thing doesn't work for him in the end, it is not the key is going to stand by you. >> one other aspect of this, we talked about this on my show yesterday. i thought it was very smart, which is about the way the electorate is polarizing the long lines of high trust, low trust. what is that people that seem the lower levels of social trust for their fellow

americans and trust in institutions are moving right mendis of the people who are the least likely to vote, they are sort of the outer perimeter, the most alienated. and they are population that biden is having the most trouble with. and i do think that one of the issues there is that folks don't trust the system to begin with. which is that population where you are seeing, in some ways, the largest amount of hemorrhaging, the polling being like while the jury of his peers convicted him may not be that effective. honestly, i think that is a huge part of how everyone is thinking. >> our friend, andrew weissman, former fbi council would like to jump in. andrew, am i right to be advised that you have a question? >> i do have a question. i have a question for jen psaki, because she always has unique questions. >> i love it. >> i'm going to flip the script. what chris is talking about, which is, this was an example, today, of what judges say all the time about fax and law matter in a court of law.

and that, i think is a message that it seems to be joe biden's message, as well. he is an institutionalist and when he took office, he was very much about i want to restore faith in the institutions. it is also not the case that this verdict didn't just appear . it is based on facts, mainly as people pointed out, from loyalists to him. why is that not the message that they are sort of jumping on, even if i get your point, maybe not today because it is not needed. but why is that sort of a bigger deal? or is it they don't need to do it because for people like me, who believe in a facts and the law, somebody you don't worry about. >> i think that will be a part of the base of the foundation

of the message, right? and if you're in the white house right now, you're discussing not today, because as you mentioned, this is the day always that he is down, as you say, where he doesn't do any public event, the anniversary of his son's death. but tomorrow, they will be discussing, how should we frame this? and on every level, what should karine say from the briefing room? what should the president say when he finally answers the question. they're going to be preparing and debate prep for how they should answer it. to your point, andrew, i think president biden comfort space, he is a defender of the rule of law, and institutions, that is comfort place is going to be that. it is the defensive democracy, defense of how our system works, defense of the everyman, as alan bragg said today who was sitting on the jury. i think for them, you make a calculation on the phases and the stages of it so tonight was more a state for, there is a campaign statement they put out, it was longer that, as i was saying earlier, to me i read it more as a message to democrats out there, to say like hey, guys, there is still a big campaign to be fighting

ahead. they are going to have to determine what their thousand foot message is. i think that what you just said is right in the rubric of what it will sound like, i would expect. >> chris i was just thinking about you talking about these high trust and low trust voters and potentially the low trust voters saying the system doesn't work for me anyway, what do i care? the president is focused on it. while we were all sitting here in our special coverage, waiting for the verdict, he and vice president, harris were speaking to almost 1000 african- american voters in philadelphia, talking about capping insulin cost and forgetting the student debt and removing medical debt from credit scores. practical things to voters to say, i am trying to improve your station in life, and those are the things that matter. >> and voters who are very likely to have people they know who have brushed up against the system in ways that they don't think are typically great. because the american criminal justice system is a sprawling enterprise, with many tentacles

and many people with very different experiences of what it is like to be in that system. >> yeah, there is an inspirational side to the practical politics of joe biden which is, if there are real problems in your life and in your community, the way that we fix those is making government work for you. if you do that, believing this is the way we adjust our grievances and you need to get the right people in office. that sounds like very small ball politics but that is democracy, that is the whole system and it is a better system to have than the alternative. 34 count, 34 convictions. a sneak peek at tomorrow's front pages tonight. that is just ahead, we will be right back. thank you. thank you so much, anything going on today?

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our special coverage continues tonight after a unanimous new york jury found donald trump guilty on 34 of the 34 felony charges that were brought against him in the hush money and election interference case arising from the stormy daniels scandal. and the 2016 presidential election. now, as chris hayes was saying moments ago, there are a lot of people in the country who haven't been paying super close attention to this case as it

has unfolded. anyone walking past a newsstand will see front pages like these. we have the print front page of the new york times. this is what it will look like. the print front page of the the washington postal. this is the kind of news that i think you consider to be inescapable. there are people who don't pay attention to the news at all. but this is the sort of thing that will change our understanding of what the stakes are and who the people are that are involved in this. >> there's only so much in political news that reaches out to the outer most perimeter of people's consciousness. and it can be hard i think if you are a person who is a political news junkie to put yourself in that frame of mind. i always, the joke i always use, i don't follow hockey. if someone is like who will win

hockey mvp? i'm like uh. >> but you know the rangers. >> there are people who know a lot about that. that just hasn't gotten to my little knowledge universe. this is one of those things where like the super bowl, like a presidential election, this is as big as news gets. every american will know the answer to the question. >> and you had a conversation about tiktok. and it is the delivery mechanism of information for those not following politics that closely. a guilty verdict works well on the times. >> i don't follow hockey at all. >> the rangers are playing right now. >> go rangers i guess.

so, is that good? >> this is how often you poll things. are things like zombie case. stormy daniels. hush money. p*rn star. if you are a normal person living their life. it's like i don't know. that seems crazy. and now it is clear. the message is guilty. >> this wasn't a hearing on capitol hill. 12 ordinary new yorkers, 18 if you count the alternates. spent the last five weeks in a courtroom. they got an hour of jury instructions. got him guilty on 34 counts. >> our special coverage continues tonight with the latest in reactions and legal analysis after this quick break. stay with us. s quick break. stay with us. and doug. (bell ringing) limu,

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In his signature style, Lawrence O'Donnell goes into depth on the latest news developments and offers his take on the political stories driving the national conversation.

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